But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. 45 acp damage human body Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. They also have a budget. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. With practice almost anything is possible. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. When Does a .380 Beat Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. I know this is off topic. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. Prefer a 9 mm. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Every round has its purpose. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? Be Safe Out There. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. We report stories that would go untold. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. Reality. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Plus: How to contact us. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. This doesnt factor shot placement. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Police usually shoot from a distance. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. You might be able to talk to the first guy. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will only penetrate one side of a human skull. Plenty of gang shootings. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. Among other things, this Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. There were no exit wounds. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. Shot placement is the deciding factor. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Really late to the discussion. I daily now carry a 9 mm. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. He was 15.. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was Black Talon I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. Muscle memory is great thing. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. 0.177" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 300 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. Good article and very good to great comments. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. So many guns so little time! My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. Because size is king? A .223 is just 55 grains. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Unless they needed concealablity. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. All rights reserved. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. We have much better tools now. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. Either will get the job done for protection. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. The damage was far too extensive. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for So, the answer is simple, right? These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. ACP But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. Thats my two cents for what its worth. Reality. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. Thats right George. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. Millenials and their bias arguments. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. Body People have died from .22 LR in one shot. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. You are up close and personal with this guy. Project: Aftermath Wiki. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Bowman, Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. But thats me. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. After reading your article, I had to 1.) I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. I am a colt Gvt. Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Really lets cut to the chase. A pistol just sucks in that situation. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). Thats the secret. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. Other human tissue in the body reacts differently. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Copyright 2023 Police1. career to carry a Glock 9mm. 380 ACP We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. I am older now, living in the city. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. They ability to kill. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life.

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